White House Presses States to Reconsider Mandatory Ebola Quarantine Orders

This issue has gotten very emotionally loaded by now..

But Obama really should back off of this..

He has done a couple of good things in his presidency but so gravely mismanaged a lot of things.. blaming others afterwards and "seething" with anger and so on..

There is no reason to have any trust in his competence on this issue either.


The treatment of the nurse in NJ is of course horrendous… she should be given a luxury facility as a thank for her service for Africa and global health, but that is a seperate issue from how to protect the US from a deadly and potentially unpredictable plague.
And this is not every day stuff… and we’re also only talking about 30 – thirty – US health care workers in Africa at the moment..

Cuomo’s "erring on the side of caution" seems like a reasonable position for now..

Also as statements like "only direct contact with bodily fluids" are supplemented with "and perhaps contaminated objects we’re not sure"…

And.. these kind of issues should not be dictated and decided by medical experts. Informed yes, but decided no. No way.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/27/nyregion/ebola-quarantine.html

The Obama administration has expressed deep concerns to the governors of New York and New Jersey and is consulting with them to modify their orders to quarantine medical volunteers returning from West Africa
as President Obama seeks to quickly develop a new, nationwide policy for the workers, according to two senior administration officials.

One administration official said the federal government has been pressing the governors to back off their decisions, which quarantine all medical workers who had contact with Ebola patients. But another official said the administration has not specifically asked the governors to reverse their policies.

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69 thoughts on “White House Presses States to Reconsider Mandatory Ebola Quarantine Orders

  1. Given not only the virulent nature of ebola but the fact that, at this time, we don’t have a known cure and the resultant obvious devastating effects that could follow an outbreak spread by even only one infected person: EVERY person, (medical personnel or otherwise), who returns from known ebola infected areas, (currently west Africa), should be quarantined on their return arrival point – regardless of the numbers involved and regardless of their apparent medical status.

    And the way CNN are sensationally, (as usual), and thus harmfully talking about current decisions being taken by Christie, good decisions taken by Christie, if you lot don’t follow rigorous quarantining procedures, regardless of whether or not people returning are displaying an illness, we might soon have to consider the USA an ebola infected area and as a result, lock you lot up whenever you leave American territorial lands ~ not such a bad thing really when you think about it and let’s face it, only about 74 Americans have passports, don’t they????

    • I’ve been (and am) standing firmly with Christie on this issue. In fact, I’m strongly resenting the left-of-center attitude towards this whole thing. It’s incoherent and self-destructive. Almost like it’s dominated by an urge to deny the facts.

      • To me an awful lot of this mindlessness stems both from the inadequacies of people’s self deluded sense of their own intelligence; they consider they’re intelligent when of course the opposite is often the case; and the influence the media has and often has on that low level of intelligence.

        The media enjoys skewing facts to the detriment of truth and to the gain of their hope for increased ratings; sensationalism being their key to perceived success it appears.

        As I understand it, the Nurse was quarantined and then complained about that. This complaint putting the whole matter nicely on a plate for CNN et al to sprinkle their Mayo sensationalism. Twenty four hours (or so) after being quarantined and being found virus free, the nurse was released. CNN reported the whole matter as Christie giving in / backing down and even going so far as to say something like, “he initially refused to apologise but later backed down.” Thus appearing to say that he apologised for being in the wrong.

        I apologise if I am not using verbatim speech.

        However, I’m sure that I heard Christie say, (after the release of the nurse from quarantine), ‘I haven’t backed down at all, she’s been held for 24 hours and medical opinion has now determined that she is virus free and can therefore be released.’

        The media didn’t seem to want to report the truth – there are no rating rises in the mundanity of truth I suppose.

        It’s odd isn’t it? CNN are spending hours of airtime spreading doom, gloom and the dire consequences of Ebola taking hold and their inferred possibilities that America could be wiped out if correct actions aren’t taken as soon as possible. They attack almost every aspect of poor Government response, (and perhaps they have a point there), but on the other hand they attack the moves that might just possibly prevent that same viral spread that they fear in the first place.

        Perhaps they call this a balanced debate – personally I think their reporting is bollox!

        Oh and by the way, well done for shit canning Piers Morgan, the only downside being that we would have much preferred it if you had kept him in your country’s territorial jurisdiction – Guantanamo bay springs to mind. And if you had done that, he could have taken all his chums at CNN along with him!

        • I think that CNN in their pursuit of being “impartial”, including not reporting of any facts if they might offend some angry segments or political groups, have gone down an absurd road of making entertainment and cliff-hangers out of too many current events. The plane thing f.ex. Probably now also Ebola ™.

          And yes,
          they will critize regardless, as that’s their “job” in their moral view of themselves.

  2. In the end BOTH Cuomo and Christie have sorta backed down….
    They will go of home holds instead of subjecting people who test negative to be isolated in tents OUTSIDE hospital walls in the year 2014 AD….

    Props to the Nurse who used the media to unhinge Politicians that had reacted to the media hysteria …..

    At this point in THIS country it is more dangerous to cross the street than to catch Ebola….

    • Adjusting measures with time and consideration is not really “backing down”… it was needed in the moment.
      What if she had tested positive? One didn’t know at the time..

      And crossing the street… the issue here is how to best contain a deadly virus/plague. Traffic statistics are not relevant.
      The fear is not about “at this point”, but how it could be in 2-3 months from now.
      We have to take precautions!!

  3. Without wishing to sound “piers morgan” – by the way that’s a synonym for “offensive” now – and specifically with regard to the ‘Jamesb’ comment above, “At this point in THIS country it is more dangerous to cross the street than to catch Ebola….,” this type of comment is often used as a kind of throw-away mask. Having said that I must confess that I think the comment, “have sorta backed down,” is ‘sorta’ correct! Had there not been such a stink created from the Nurse’s media contact they may well have kept her on the porta loo/potty for 21 days.

    Of course throw one ounce of, “they’re trying to take our liberties away from us,again,” and then deliver it Paul Revere style, “and dollar to a cent those goddamned plummy voiced Brits are at the root of all this, don’t forget those limeys had colonial rule in Africa before; does anyone wanna buy any silver, get it now before this ebola mania drives the price up,” and the American public reacts in much the same way a redneck would if one tried to offer him an education in exchange for handing over his armoury.

    – Ebola has been known about for quite a longtime but little has been done to combat it
    – There is no known and approved drug to combat it, known and approved in comparison to things like smallpox, yellow fever etc
    – Doctors / Scientists aren’t Gods, hell we still don’t really understand the common cold nor how to cure it and if that is considered a petty comment on my behalf, consider that there isn’t that much difference between a coward and a hero, (I am terribly sorry, I got carried away there), between the common cold / flu strains / SARS (symptoms as with a cold in the first stage, later resemble flu……………leading to pneumonia……virlal pneumonia or secondary bacterial pneumonia) – thank God for the wonders of Wikipedia eh!
    – On ebola, It has been stated by the scientific community that there is a potential for ebola to transmute. Into what is anyone’s guess

    I don’t know about you but I do not think Gods are doctors – ooops – doctors are Gods, hell I ask for a second opinion when I walk in and they say, “…..and how are we today….?”

    We are often presented with What’s Gupta Upta, the resident CNN white coat, an American neurosurgeon and not a doctor of tropical medicine or high level immunology telling us all about ebola. Here’s a man who, during the Fukushima, (I love that word), nuclear “meltdown,” told us all as he stood next to his lord and master, Scooper Pooper the Squeaky, that all the Radiation Clean up workers were wearing breathing apparatus helmets: “and why is that Guppsie,” squeaky asked, to which Guppsie replied, giving us all one of those Hollywood moment stares, “why scoopy poopy, don’t you know: it’s to prevent the clean up workers from breathing in gamma radiation,” and then Guppsie tossed his locks back and flashed his bleached teeth. Mine by the way are almost black, I smoke trees, environmentally protected trees. [NOTE: If the radioactive element emits gamma associated with alpha and / or beta PARTICLES, then it is the alpha/beta radiation that they can breathe in as solid minute particles that contain and emit alpha/beta radiation which can cause somatic cell damage]

    Of course it isn’t actually possible to “breathe” gamma radiation in because it’s electromagnetic. It would be a bit like sitting in front of one’s TV and breathing deeply when one is watching CNN – although thinking about it, maybe I’m wrong because I have a feeling that an awful lot of people do breathe in whatever CNN / Fox et al tells them to breathe in. Nothing stops Gamma radiation, it simply penetrates everything, its capacity for harm being very much dependent on its intensity at the moment it zaps one!

    Anyway, if the doctors and scientists don’t really understand ebola and assuming we do not have a cure, how the hell can we possibly determine that some form of quarantine is not required for those who have been over in infected areas regardless of whether or not they exhibit symptoms on return. How can we be sure that it cannot pass from human to human BEFORE the symptoms appear (a senior female representative from MSN made the statement that it can only be transferred when a person has the symptoms – as indeed have other doctors) – how the hell do they know that, they don’t fully understand what ebola is? And they say they don’t fully understand it, not me!

    On the one hand people in the west are rightly scared shitless that ebola might take a hold in our territories and on the other hand they get up in arms when someone’s “rights” are supposedly infringed.

    We don’t have a clue about some of these ‘devastating’ diseases. One thing we do know is that they can transmute. If we don’t know what they are and where they originate from, how the hell do we know if someone isn’t a carrier of some gene that, mixed with your 60% corn fed diet, might not turn into something worse!

    Americans are just going to have to ‘sorta’ decide, “you’re either with someone or against someone ~ so let’s go and invade someone – – are the limeys with us – yesssssssssssssss – come on, let’s kick ass!!!!”!!!!”

    • Lol yes, Gupta Upta is a very comical figure on CNN!

      And now the nurse is uncontrollable and out on her bike! The Governor was quietly pleading “please be reasonable and stay home until Nov 10th”, but no!

      • Guppsie looks like an overgrown schoolboy, there again, correspondingly (not a bad word choice considering his CNN role), he is an overgrown schoolboy.

        I think what is even more troubling to consider is that shaky O’Barmy actually considered, (but did not formally offer), Guppsie for the prestigious position of Surgeon General of the USA. We are told that centrefold Guppsie withdrew his name from consideration, but I’m not so sure that this decision was unilaterally taken since there was some opposition raised.

        Nevertheless, and taking a CNN leaf from the elementary year 1 book, CNN’s book, one should offer a balanced infotainment ‘sorta’ investigative side to all this.

        THOSE AGAINST:
        – because of his conflicts of interest with drug companies; they sponsor his programmes: – Dr. John Conyer et al
        THOSE FOR:
        – because Gupta’s responsibilities wouldn’t be that different from what he was doing with CNN: – liberal commentator Jane Hamsher and most appropriately a Ms. Donna Wright, of “Creative Health Care Management”

        I have no idea who / what the “Creative Health Care Management” thingy is but it all sounds a bit creative to me ~ “let’s set up a trust fund for our kids, the drug companies’ can afford it, right” ~

        Gupta’s responsibilities as Surgeon General of the entire United States of America, a Nation of some 320 million people, appointed because his duties wouldn’t be much different from the ones he already had with CNN – the mind boggles and so would a surgeon’s knife as he commenced with the heart, or whatever, surgery methinks.

        SURGEON: OK bud, have you got me from my best profile angle
        CNN Cameraman: Sure do Sir
        SURGEON: It’s Doctor, bud
        CNN Cameraman: Gee, sorry ’bout that Doctor Bud
        SURGEON: Have you got my web site url and logo in camera, you should do, it’s emblazoned across numb nuts’ surgical gown
        CNN: Sure do Doc; who’s numb nuts?
        SURGEON: The goddamned patient. Hey, is my fee in my bank account
        CNN: Sure is Doc, cleared this morning
        SURGEON: OK, here we go, gerronimo, oh shit….nurse, nurse, which side is the heart on? Guppsie said it was here
        NURSE: That’s his neck Doctor

        With endorsements like that is it any wonder Guppsie thought better of it!

        Mind you, I’m not surprised Shamus O’Barmy considered Guppsie though, they are brothers in flip flop!

        • As for Barry – I’ve been through this so many times – but he’s just too much in his own dreams and wishful thinking, and almost completely void of any ability for practical leadership or making decisions. It’s been exhausting six years in that respect, but it’s soon over. He’s a great guy but no boss or presidential material.

          That said, he gets me boiling with his derogatory comments about “Ebola-hysteria”.

          • Yes well, by the time Baz retires back home to Hawaii, Kenya, Indonesia or wherever, you lot will have had at least 16 years of continuous bad governance, (just how many mirrors did you lot break).

            However, you are by no means alone. The “west” in general has similarly suffered, just look at boy wonder Cameron, not a Batman in sight, yet he continues to run around like a headless chicken in his green underpants and there is no-one around who could be considered much better – no men of stature or adequate reproductive parts to be seen.

            And from an outsider’s point of view, and much as I would love to see Christie in the Oval chair – with an appropriate extension added – I don’t see your “system” allowing him in – but wouldn’t it be great to see him tearing a few new anuses (anii) in the journalists at those Presidential press statements we see on the TV!

            Fear not, I am considering standing as Prime-President of the “Untied” Kingdom – I might be able to nip over to the “Untied” States of America and give you all a few pointers too.

            I shall let you know when I have written my memoirs on how I “intend” to do things – it does seem all the rage these days to expect applause BEFORE one actually does anything – “I deserve much better than this you know, and will you please stop shouting at me, you’re a bully and I’m about to burst into tears!”

            I shall give you a link to the “memoirs” soon – it’s all about how I solved the equality and glass ceiling issue and solved it for good!

        • Not sure if you read this one – the thread had “run out” of replies so I replied to my own comment and it might not have shown up in your notifications!

          Anyroads the comment was this – I just couldn’t imagine you’d let Miliand or Boris go like that!!


          Looking forward to the link!!

          And your take on the next PM Ed Miliband!! Or PM Boris!!
          😀

          • On the next PM, do you know I really don’t think it matters anymore. The Labour lot (now Milliband) to a great extent went “kinda” Conservative when bony Tony took over and the “wets” took over the Conservatives to an extent and thus they “kinda” went a bit socialist – then we have number 3, the liberals and nobody really cares what they do and mainly I think because they tend to do very little other than squeak.

            I am very much an Englishman (birth, background, lineage etc), but do not live in the UK. However, it does seem as though there is something of a backlash from both left and right wing supporters at this time and towards UKIP – Nigel Farage – I am not convinced he could win outright but with the degree of general disaffection among many UK voters regards Conservative and Labour voters (and forget the Liberals, most people do), I suppose there’s a possibility of another hung vote next year. If UKIP pick up shall we say, the number of seats that the Liberals currently have, well we could see another coalition and maybe Conservative-UKIP. It’s a bit difficult to tell really, but there does seem to be quite a lot of muttering going on among the great unwashed and when that happens there’s a tendency to knee-jerk. Labour can’t exactly be considered the champion of the cloth caps and hob nailed boots just as the right, Conservatives can hardly return us to the days when “people knew their place” – UKIP might slip in!!

            Farage is very clever – there is certainly an element of camelionism about his, but people seem to like what he says and he’s rarely beaten in debates, questions, comments. There could be one of those, “wadda we got to lose, let’s give it whirl!!”

            On the “link” – well I gave that to you before didn’t I and I thought you indicated you had received?? – However, see again following:

            http://terofarty.wordpress.com/2014/11/02/0034-mdg-interlude-17-%E2%99%AB-ceilings-%E2%99%AA-%E2%99%AC-nothing-more-than-ceilings-%E2%99%AA/

    • At this point everything is probably just fine – but she still seems narrow-minded, stubborn and selfish.
      With some flexibility for just a few more days,
      she could’ve been even more of a hero.

      • Now Mr. Mac, “narrow-minded, stubborn and selfish,” that’s a little beneath you – you may as well say “men get erections,” – she’s a woman, once they get their high heels jammed into the porta potty, there’s no shifting them!

          • Ah well then, that says it all – she’s probably of Welsh extraction then – we always try and keep the Welsh lot in quarantine behind “Offa’s Dyke” – Offa was an 8th century Mercian King who built a large linear earthwork 176 miles long which cuts them off totally from England – and it doesn’t half annoy them – mind you, to be fair, at least your lot gave Nursey a porta potty, Offa certainly didn’t offer them those little luxuries back then; indeed, I don’t think they had porta potties in those days. Still, they could have crapped in the dyke’s ditch I suppose!

            Hey, now there’s an idea to solve your Mexico-USA Border problems – just put a 1,954 mile line of Dykes across it – you’ve got plenty of Dykes in the US from what I hear – it could go some way to alleviate your unemployment problems and the ladies would get a nice holiday out of it – it’s sunny down there isn’t it?

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offa%27s_Dyke

    • “Never tested positive for the illness” – well thank God our medical personnel are infallible.

      Hopefully, and I sincerely mean this, hopefully this ebola will never hit your land in the sense of becoming an epidemic. Under the current circumstances it just seems to me to be a better course of action to err heavily on the side of caution in the short term – and especially when we do not have a solid understanding and control over this virus at this time.

      People are so concerned about their individual rights, which is fine to a point, but what about the rights of others.

      Let’s just hope, testicles crossed, that the medicos are right – but if you had the chance, would you sniff her bicycle seat?!

      • On a serious note – it does seem to be declining in Liberia f.ex., and it may burn out for now.
        But the rights “dilemma” is exactly right – maybe not in this case, where she’s just a big ego.

        • There’s far too much emphasis on personal liberties spawned from far too much emphasis on civil liberties in the west – now that should put a few pussies among the raw product that KFC uses – and on this convention “f.ex” you have a tendency to use, be very careful not to miss your period!

          If you ever miss your ‘period’ and inadvertently write “fex” – I hope you know what it means in Latin!

          And what is that avatar picture of yours – I can’t recognise it? Is it an American version of the leaning tower of Pisa – possibly this one being the leaning tower of Pizza?

            • “Vibes?”

              Is that why the building is pissed then – too much vibration round that way?

              I’ve never been to Bologna but I assume that’s where the Spaghetti Bolognese originates from?

          • Bologna is the food capital of Italy! And being in the “shadows” of Milan, Florence and Venice – it’s a very nice and relaxed and friendly city – with lots of students. And nice buildings. And the main piazza is great.
            And the best mozzarella I’ve ever tried (I still have to go to the source in south Italy around Naples and Calabria though).

            • Yes well and haven’t you noticed the strange similarities shared between their politics and their spaghetti – them trying to implement their Italian politics and the eating of spaghetti have a lot in common and meaning we all tend to end up with sauce all over the place – but I LOVE Berlusconi – what a man – he could be my dictator anyday!

          • Ah yes, Italian politics.. don’t get me started!!!
            Il Cavaliere was very charming and fun at times but man has he damaged the country and the younger generations..
            Sauce everywhere indeed!

            • Well yes indeed, sauce in and on all and also in my comments of course.

              I hope the UK pulls out of Europe – the next 6 years should see it either happen or not I reckon. I don’t see Europe going anywhere but down, down, down – and I wish they’d put that damn curtain back up again and this time make it Titanium and radioactive!

              I was in the UK when the wall came down 1989 – so I flew over to Berlin or at least I tried to – they stopped me at passport control and asked me what the hell I thought I was doing carrying a Hod, bag of bricks and pack of cement powder and the only thing I could think of saying was, “well I couldn’t carry the full spec with me could I, it would exceed the allowed weight limit and anyway, don’t they sell sand over there in Berlin then?”

          • Ah, back to the splendid isolation!! 😉

            Let’s see – I think Russia might create some newfound cohesion and common interest in Europe.. or then again, maybe more fissures and old bad blood.

            • Well I’m a cold war baby and now I live in the tropics – I wouldn’t mind a chill now and then – we could call the new one a chilli war!!

  4. I agree with you about the nurse’s behavior, it’s been grating on me as well. Yes, what she is saying is based on science. Here’s the thing–there’s science and then there are relationships with other people in your community, and relating to other human beings cannot always be based on purely scientific thinking. Human beings have emotions, they will get fearful and anxious about a deadly disease like this. How about being a little more considerate of the community you live in? I can’t understand why it would be such a big deal for her to stay at home for what is only a limited period of time.

    I suspect the passionate left of center defense of the nurse is based on the idea that we’re supposed to defend Obama no matter what. I’m very much a leftie and I heartily disagree with that assessment. Put it this way–my personal socialist state would have had a travel ban imposed a long time ago 🙂

    • Yep, mine too 🙂
      Or at least a mandatory quarantine!

      Reg. the nurse – you almost get the sense that this is about something else, that it’s all about her wanting to oppose authorities or something.

      But luckily,
      I think every day that passes without any new cases appearing calms everyone. The first Texas case and the two infected could probably very easily have been avoided. A person from West Africa with high fever; take the tests and send them to a trained facility!

  5. Ok….

    I’ll weigh in here….
    As I expected….
    The judge ruled on one thing up in maine….
    Since his case involved a woman who was NEVER infected?
    The mandatory order from the Governor was NOT GOOD….
    kaci has apologized to her neighbors and has indicated that she WILL NOT venture into town until AFTER the 21 day period….

    I salute her for her actions , which where good to point out the political aspect of the actions against her….

    • Technically she could still be infected, test negatively, and develop symptoms any time before Nov 10th. That’s why a quarantine is necessary.

      She could have Ebola. We don’t know for sure yet.

    • Luckily, yes.

      But again, troops are already mandatory quarantined, do the same with the 30 health workers, and we’re all good. Common sense!

  6. This is all simply political and financial – if Obarmy and his troops had come down with Christie’s view then it would probably have been Christie flying the “rights of man” flag.

    Consider also the large numbers of American (and UK / Euro) oil workers on rotational contracts working in and around West African Nations regardless of whether they are or are not ebola hit areas – my old employers will be / would have been squittering themselves had the US imposed a formal 21 day or other quarantine – undoubtedly quiet, but at the same time powerful, voices may well have been heard.

    • Indeed. And I like the financial angle, it’s always there, however unpleasant to think about.

      There’s a huge difference between people treating sick folks in hit areas and just being in the country though.
      But either way – let’s hope the vaccine is ready soon,
      and the outbreak fades out again, like earlier incidents.

      But it has been an embarrassing thing to the US…

      • Well there’s been a general laxity throughout your current President’s tenures although in fairness he inherited from a bad lot.

        And in general there has been weak and ineffectual governance throughout the West, UK etc – so embarrassments all round perhaps.

          • In your 6.30 am comment you used the words “But it has been an embarrassing thing to the US.”

            When it was announced that Palin would stand as VP to McCain and the rest of the world got to see / hear her, well to me as a non American citizen, I was embarrassed to think that such a people as the American people could have allowed such a thing to happen.

            I know that for quite some time now we have been educated to accept those less fortunate than ourselves into our communities and hearts – but I didn’t think that extended to allowing clinically considered and self proven morons into our highest positions of governance – the only thing that could be considered worse than that was the fact that she had any supporters among American people at all – and I even heard people saying she would be a great VP and possibly President – God help us!

        • God help us indeed!!!
          But imagining Romney/Ryan from 2012.. the picture is not at all that clear, as a contrast..
          The Obama-type of “liberalism” or “leftism” has proven itself way too incapable against both domestic private money, and the realities and seemingly timeless nature of geopolitics. Maybe a little more corruption and a little less democracy is the price to pay for a more effectual and confrontational management of country and foreign policy.
          But – again – the Bush way is probably a lot worse.

          • Ah now, “corruption,” yes, now you’re getting close to one of my favourite area specialties, something close to me heart and close to me pocket – and down in the barnyard where the lamp-light flickers, I lost me heart and democracy lost her knickers!

  7. I say there old sport, who are the front runners for the Democrats’ Presidential choice to run in 2016 – APART FROM the Hamster – I’m crossing my testicles, twice, that the Hamster doesn’t get in – so who else have they got apart from her?

    • No one really.. someone might call for Cuomo as a “Roosevelt”-ish NYS progressive democrat, but he’s too unknown and maybe too much “North-East”.
      The chats about Biden is fun but not much more I think.
      So.. if the Hamster changes her mind (which seems very unlikely), it would be a bit of panic on the left I think.
      Elizabeth Warren could be stronger than most people think though, but she’s too “extreme” or direct maybe. And a bit narrow in her pursuit of banks and the financial industry.

      • Oh well, I’m afraid (I’m not really afraid you know, that’s just one of those expressions, you know, like for example when someone annoys one and one replies “if you do that again I’ll rip your bloody head off and shit down your neck” – I would never rip anyone’s head off, shit down their neck, yes, but never rip a head off), but I digress, I’m afraid I’ve only heard of her and Michelle Obarmy – although didn’t you have someone called Kennedy and wasn’t he a Democrat – he liked driving around in open topped cars didn’t he?

        Nevertheless, thank you for your in depth reply – but it seems a bit small doesn’t it, Hamster and 3 other people in the Dem Party and them running a nation too!

        • Exactly good point. The Hamster is very flawed, and even if the Electoral College is heavily tilting the field towards Democrats – these things are not necessarily very uplifting for the next decade.
          The dominating issue and destructive force in managing and growing the nation now is big money dictating politics, and will the Hamster push back some of that, probably not.
          These are recurring themes on this blog, but anyways; it was worse in the late 1800’s with the big industrialists and bankers, and TR changed that and the country. That should be the model for today’s challenges and entering a new and hopefully constructive and prosperous phase in US history.

          • Flawed indeed and so flawed she even let another woman do her job for her – he said leaving everyone one aghast and with their mouths hanging open – well yes exactly and just as I said, she let another woman……… – and on big money and even a mere suggestion she might push back against it, oh no, I don’t think so. That woman has a rather good reputation of picking up her friends and dropping them at the merest hint of “poverty” where “friendship” may not assist her cause – and as to your reference to TR, no, I don’t think she would have made a good rough rider and don’t forget my earlier comment – more like an old bag of potatoes in the sack I would guess!

            • Yep, I’m afraid (not really scared but you know as you layed out the other day :)) you’re right too.
              She didn’t do much as Sec. State for 4 yrs either, and her latest book was boooooooring!

            • I have a feeling that now you lot have broken the black ice (and ain’t you just skidding all over the Goddamned place) your lot might fancy the other Venusian minority group and put a wimin in just to show us all how “Goddamned” liberal you really are – “hell, the Limeys had Margret Thatcher; let’s give it a whirl and then after 4 or 8 years we’ll head back to the ranch and stick a tried and tested grey suit back in again”

              So, what the hell eh? What’s 24 years of total crap governance in the overall scheme of things – that’s how future historians and students will probably write it off!

              WAHEY!

      • Ah yes, but is she enjoying it – poor Florence, I do hope you’re not hurting her?

        All seems fairly calm in the tropics, but I never really know. I find it better not to look outside.

        On the other hand and in more temperate climes, things don’t seem to be going so well. Have the various US Police departments around the Nation decided to implement drastic and innovative immigration policies. I once heard that various white supremacist groups in the US were calling for some form of repatriation for your darker hewed brothers and sisters. It seems to some of us outsiders that your police have decided to go one better and kill them all.

        Is this a no time dependent systematic policy one asks oneself and should the Grand Jury be retitled and called the “are you shitting me” jury?

        Still, all hearts being removed and handed out willy nilly aside, its certainly providing greater entertainment than HBO / Star Movies / Star World could ever hope for or indeed provide.

        Relatively passive protests in New York for now; fingers crossed this end, hopefully we’ll see a good punch up soon!!!

        Did you know that Hitler, Franco and Stalin hated Jazz with unsurpassed vehemence whereas at least Mussolini, for all his faults, loved it. Stay in Italy mate – I think you and Florence will be a lot safer there!!

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